Art 2 Heart
Art 2 Heart
A2H #9 | Peace Corps, Scuba Diving, & Living Outside Your Comfort Zone with Kayla Noble
Peace Corps. SCUBA Diving. Long distance relationship during COVID.
What do these three things have in common?
They’re all really damn hard.
But doing hard things is nothing new to today’s guest, Kayla Noble, who has always had a natural inclination go outside of her comfort zone. It hasn’t always been easy, but damn it if it hasn’t been rewarding and an adventure of a lifetime.
From taking a leap of faith and moving across the world, to following her passion of Scuba diving in one of the most remote corners of the globe, Kayla has no shortage of lessons and lifetimes of desire to go after what she wants.
Kayla Noble is a Dive Master and Dive Instructor in Timor-Leste, one of the smallest countries in South East Asia, and home to the richest marine biodiversity on the planet. She’s a lover of the ocean, a passport stamp collector, and has frequent flyer miles for the roads less travled. She grew up in Oklahoma, Texas, and then moved to North Carolina. She is a future resident of wherever the ocean and diving will lead her next.
Kayla and I met in the Peace Corps in Timor-Leste in 2015, and has been one of the few people I have kept in touch with regularly since returning back to the states in 2018. Her conviction and determination to follow her dreams has been inspiring since day one, and it’s very possible I wouldn’t be here on this podast had Kayla and I not given each other the space to have these conversations about what it truly means to be alive and have what little time we get on this planet.
Topics we cover in this episode include:
- how being a Peace Corps volunteer helped her decide to turn her passion of SCUBA diving into a career
- how different languages can influence the way you think about yourself
- how to reconcile a new identity with old places
- how can the lessons from one experience be used as momentum to carry you through a new, more difficult experience?
- grieving previous versions of ourselves
- what it feels like in the day-to-day of pursuing the unknown
- a unique take on empathy
- what a soul contract is and how it helped change my perspective to get over a messy end of a relationship
East Timor doesn’t have the most reliable internet service, so the audio quality is a little compromised.
Follow Kayla
Instagram : @marie_of_the_sea
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Follow the Pod
Instagram: @art2heart.podcast
Website: art2heart.life
David’s Instagram: @mor.intune
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Podcast artwork by Holly Pelletier Clark
Instagram: @themoonstorybook
📍 but you also have to be very mentally strong for cave diving. It's one of the most dangerous activities you can do in the diving world and you have to put things aside, like you can't actually be so focused on yourself that you forget the tasks at hand because forgetting one task could mean that, that you lose your way and you die, but that becomes the meditation that people love so much about it
Welcome to the Art to Heart podcast. My name is David Morin. I'm a former corporate sales guy turned poet, and this is where we explore how finding your voice can help your path and your purpose. Find you, whether you're currently in a career transition or can't wait to be in one, we learn how leaning into creative expression can be the missing key to transforming your life and the life around you.
Peace Corps. Scuba diving. Long distance relationship during COVID. What do these three things have in common? They're all really damn hard. But doing hard things is nothing new to today's guest, kayla Noble. Who has always had a natural inclination to go outside her comfort zone. From taking a leap of faith and moving across the world to following her passion of scuba diving in one of the most remote corners of the globe. Kayla has no shortage of lessons and lifetimes of desire to go after what she wants. Kayla Noble as a dive master and dive instructor in Timor less day, one of the smallest countries in Southeast Asia in home to the richest Marine biodiversity on the planet. She's a lover of the ocean. A passport stamp collector and has frequent flyer miles for the road less traveled. Kayla grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, and then moved to North Carolina. Kayla. And I met in the peace Corps in Timor less day in 2015 and she's been one of the few people I have kept in touch with regularly since returning back to the states in 2018. Her conviction and determination to follow her dreams has been inspiring since day one.
It's very possible. I wouldn't be here on this podcast, had Kayla and I never given each other the space to have these conversations about what it truly means to be alive. And have what little time we get on this planet.
Topics we cover in this episode include. How different languages can influence the way you think about yourself. How to reconcile a new identity with older places. Grieving previous versions of ourselves. What it feels like in the day-to-day of pursuing the unknown. A unique take on empathy. And what a soul contract is. And how it can help change your perspective to get through difficult situations.
East Timor doesn't have the most reliable internet service. So the audio quality is a little bit compromised. Let's jump in.
Hello, Kayla.
How are
you? Hello. Thank you for the intro, David. Yeah. Sorry about the internet. It's uh, very slow here, but I'm good. How are you?
Uh, I'm fantastic. So yeah give a little context of what you're still doing in Tmore? Actually, no, I think I, I wanna give more context on that too, because I really admire you and respect you and want to give you props, because you were like one of the first people out of, our group there, that like you knew exactly what you were going for and you did it immediately.
And just in general, I think when, when you see that in someone of, of what they want and they're gonna make it work and you have been making it work and, your life seems like a, a fairytale sometimes cause I know it's always hard, but it's just so cool. Like you're, you're SCU, scuba diving is your biggest passion and that's what you made your career.
And yeah. So congratulations.
Thank you. Yeah. That is quite the hype up. It's, it's funny you say that because I feel like everyone else knew before I did and was like, yeah, I'm gonna go after this. But yeah, I'm very fortunate that kind of along this weird maze of a pathway, it led me into scuba diving and I've met some awesome people along the way, yourself included.
And I get to go out and hang out next to the ocean every day and, and see all the beautiful fish and corals that we have. So, yeah, I feel very fortunate that I've, I found something and passionate about and that I, I actually get to, to work with that. It makes work feel a lot less work like a lot of days.
, so Kayla has made a really awesome, uh, Instagram page of these beautiful photos that she takes from her adventures under the sea
Yeah, that's kind of, my focus is more sharing, like my SBA diving story. And so I have a little bit of my background and, and like when I started diving versus like now where I do it as a profession, so yeah, I guess I never really did my own little intro thing, but obviously we met during peace Corps and, uh, we were doing the community economic development and stuff, little projects.
And then During that time I really got into the diving and afterwards I decided that it was something I wanted to pursue as a career. So after peace Corps, I went home for a bit. And then I flew myself back all alone, back to the country that I had made a lot of friends in and stuff who were now gone.
And and I started on that path. So I did my dive, master how my instructor, and here I am.
How was that? Cause I've been, I've been terrified of that feeling of cuz I really wanna go back Totour now it's been, it's been a while for me. And I'm like, wow. Yeah, I wanna go see my family, but it's gonna feel so weird being in all of these shared ex like the whole country is like a big shared experience of like my friends there.
And so it'll just feel so weird to be there alone. And so like what was that like for you to go back and live there and. Not have everyone there. yeah.
I mean, honestly it was a bit intimidating and, and kind of scary. There were moments. I was like, what am I doing? Because you know, you just spend all this money to go back somewhere, but then you don't have that safety net, that peace Corps kind of gives you in some ways.
And then those friends that you've made and yeah, all those shared experiences and stuff.
And it's just, am I just, it's not just a social net. It's also a, the peace Corps. Like the medical net treats us like divas, because like, if, if we had gotten an illness that could not be treated sufficiently in the country by us government standards, they would ship us out to Thailand or wherever to get the care we needed.
Yeah. And so that's also the umbrella that Kayla was leaving behind to follow her passion.
yeah, exactly. So that all kind of stripped away. And there is that moment of kind of like, oh man, I'm really on my own now. And it was strange, but in a way, I, I felt that it was very difficult for me to adjust back to life in, in the us.
And it was almost easier to go back to Tmore because at that time it felt more comfortable.
Did it feel like an escape at all? Like you were escaping readjustment or did it feel more like you were going towards diving?
Oh, a hundred percent. I was, I was escaping my readjustment because I know a lot of you really struggled. And so my, yeah, my solution was to just leave and go back.
I'm not gonna lie. Read readjustments, probably been the hardest experience in my life. Yeah, without doubt, like that was just this huge fucking cloud I could never get out of.
Oh, and what was it for you? Was it just like feeling like you weren't sure what to do next or like the cultural differences suddenly, or
it was a big mix of everything you would imagine from a readjustment, but I also had like the end of a relationship to tie out of it. So it was really hard for me to separate the two, you know, like there's an experience you have with the person you're with, and then there's an experience you have there for what you went to do.
And , you know, but towards the end of the experience, you know, I think I was, I was just so jaded and like, so, I didn't have the best ways of dealing with my stress at the time. I didn't write, then I didn't have an outlet I, I was, I did not deal with, as you know, I do deal with my struggles in a very healthy way.
And so in doing that, you become a lot more codependent. And so the end of that was just a lot of codependency. And so, being removed from that was hard being removed from the country, like my host family, I, I missed my host family so much. I was, I still talk to them. Yeah. I know. You're close with them.
Yeah. I'm very close with them. I'm like, I think the reason I've been waited to go back is to go for my host brother's wedding. Cuz I don't wanna miss that.
yeah, you
definitely don't wanna miss that. Yeah, but so that's why it was like just a big web. Like it took me a while to get over the emotional aspect.
and then after that, it's like, oh, now I got this other mountain to like, climb. Right. so it just it's a lot, it felt impossible a lot of times. And then, you know, I, I didn't, I brought my unhealthy coping back with me for the few years. And so, uh, no, that, that was definitely, people are a hundred percent, right.
When they say that the readjustment is a lot harder than the service. And for me, it was damn near twice as long . So I was, I was in teamwork for two years, but like no bullshit. I was there for like six years emotionally and.
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, and maybe I'm sure it's everywhere, but I just feel like teamwork has this hold on on you when you go.
It definitely leaves a mark. And yeah, that was hard for me to shake. And, and of course at the time I was also just not sure. If I was making the right move, it was a pretty risky thing to, to go back and, and spend some of my savings and stuff to go somewhere where I didn't have so many safety nets in anymore.
And just go after something where I didn't know if it was gonna work out or not. So, but I didn't know, like I was struggling a lot at home, even just the four months I was there. All the, like all the choices we have in the states. And like, I don't know, just all of the first world problems. It just really bothered me on a whole other level after living in Tmore.
So it was just easier to go back and, and I felt like I had reinvented. I think I've heard it said that when you learn a second language, sometimes your personality can change. while you're speaking that other language. And I feel like for me being in Timor, I kind of like stripped my whole personality down and, and built it up as something different entirely just to, to survive because it is so different from everything I'd known before.
So then going back to the states, I found it hard to, to redefine who I was and like doing some of the things I, I remember doing before, I felt like a ghost of myself. If that makes sense. Like I was looking at someone I should recognize, but I, I didn't anymore. So that's deep.
that's deep. I will say you had an, you had an amazing transformation during teen war.
I mean, we all had some transformations, but I think I'm speaking for myself. Like, it, it felt like a downward trend, like transformation. I feel like you were one of the only ones who went out glowing up, like, yeah, but I'm gonna go dive in. I know what I wanna do with my life. Fuck. Yeah. And it's like, what the fuck is her problem?
Like,
yeah. Tmore really like beats you up. So
but but that's powerful. So like, do you, do you think it was the fact that you didn't have like the, the same environment anymore to be the new person you were like, you're like the new version of you was only allowed to be that version in Timor and they didn't know how to be that in America.
Is that kinda what you're.
Yeah a little bit. I, I guess I had gotten used to because you go without so many different things and there's certain hardships. You just don't experience in the us that you experience in Timor generally. I, I didn't allow myself some of the pleasures and, and like comforts that I could have just because I really kind of went too deep into character of like, I am Tim now, like when you're like those people who go into character mode, what do they call that?
I feel like
I was a method actor, and then I couldn't get out of it a little bit. ,
that was, I think the living conditions for me, it, the living conditions were never really a, a huge part of it after that. That's what people at home thought were the hardest was like, oh, I'm outta water. So I gotta be really careful with my shower today. And like, they would freak the hell out. And I'm like, I mean, that's just a thing.
that's just a fly on the wall here. You know, like we're just chilling for me. It was the emotional part of it was a lot harder being a part of, of a community that was like very inclusive and new, new, no boundaries. That was hard for me. I mean, there were a lot of things that were hard for sure,
yeah. I think mentally, like, I would feel guilty for, for having things that I used to enjoy anymore. And so it was this weird, like I've, it's still a process, even now. I feel like I'm still healing in some ways of, of being like, you know what, I'm gonna pamper myself a little.
It's okay. If I get something a little bit nicer for myself now, I don't have to feel bad about that because you see people who've gone through so much and have so little that you start to feel that it's not fair. Like why should I have more than they do?
You want the genetic lottery of being born in America. yeah, honestly. and so, and I think there's, there's a lot of, of recognizing and owning that privilege, for sure, for sure. It was really funny because you were, uh, You were gonna enter an essay or something into a diving magazine contest.
What was that?
Yeah, I didn't win. It was just like a photo contest thing. And then you're supposed to put a nice description.
Yeah, because I tried, that was awesome that you did that, that you put yourself out there and you wanted to express yourself in that way.
But it was also really cool because I had been bugging you for a while to like, Try to write a poem. But when you sent me that paper, you're like, I just want you to take a look at it.
And I was like, Kayla, this is, this is a poem, just out a couple line breaks, but this is a damn poem. Like it was, it was so poetic and beautiful. And so, we turned it into a poem and I wanted to know if you would share that.
Yes, I can share that one with you, even though I didn't win the competition.
That's okay. Yeah, I, I do. I enjoy words. So, I feel like we can definitely, we definitely connected with it on, on that side, obviously, since you're really into poetry. You're great poet now, so, okay. Uh, I don't have a name for this, but yeah, here it goes.
Ready? Yeah.
I'm surrounded by darkness except for the light on my helmet. The only sounds are my breathing and the rumble from bubbles hitting the cave ceiling, a reminder there is no way up. Instead of being filled with fear, I'm struck with awe. I've visited caves before, but never underwater.
I move through vast spaces with no end in sight, through narrow tunnels where my body and my equipment fit just right. I go only where my hands can pull me. Through the crevice to this place where few have set their eyes. This view is breathtaking and the air in my tank is limited. I move on to explore this hidden wonder of the world decorated so delicately. The stalactites strip from above like thousands of icycles, reaching for the stalagmites that rise from the floor. Many have joined together to form beautiful pillars, gateways that guide my hands, my light beams as I swim through.
And that's it
damn. That was so good. I only go, I only go where my friends can pull.
Yeah. So this was something I wrote and the, the picture that followed it was me shining a light on some cave structures and yeah, just trying to describe the beauty of, of the underwater cave world.
You're basically Indiana Jones of the water.
that is quite the compliment. Thank you.
You painted a beautiful picture. Like it was another world as if it could have been a dream, but you live in that dream. And so what, what is it like for me, who, for someone who is terrified and can barely snorkel for like more than sixties, consecutive seconds.
Like I remember the
dokey paddle, David
Oh man. I mean, at least you can, you know, well,
Yeah. So what is it, what is that like? What is it like to be underwater and to witness all of that around you and then to come back up,
oh, some dives you go and, and you come back and it's just like, man, I don't, I don't want to come up yet. You know, like you're just enjoying it so much. You're just into the zone. You're seeing so many amazing things. It's just, it can be very meditative at times.
It can be stressful at times. But overall it's very much like ocean therapy and maybe people say that a lot, but it's very true. I mean, there's just this calmness of, of seeing the life the fish or even in the caves, just the silence and the darkness has its own meditative properties.
Damn. That's even just imagining that just immediately took me to a relaxing place.
Yeah.
it's just very unreal. I spent a lot of my time diving in the ocean and during COVID I ended up in Mexico for about nine months. And that's when I got into cave diving with a friend there and Cancun. Yeah. In Cancun. And. It was like this whole different experience.
And I wasn't sure how I felt about it at first, because in the caves it's dark, it's silent. There's like a blind cave fish and a shrimp. And I'm used to some of the most gorgeous reefs you'll see in the world so it was just a whole different type of diving to experience as well.
And to come to terms with like, okay, there's beauty here as well.
Did that force you to be a lot more inside of your own head while you were diving there? Hmm.
at times. Yes. But, but you also have to be very mentally strong for cave diving. It's one of the most dangerous activities you can do in the diving world, actually, for people who don't know. And so you have to be, you have to put things aside, like you can't actually be so focused on yourself that you forget the tasks at hand because forgetting one task could mean that, that you lose your way and you die.
So , there's really no room for anything, but, but the cave diving in that moment, but that becomes the meditation that people love so much about it because they, they have to force everything else out and have that priority. Kind of like in a lot of art, art, see things, people do, people do stuff to get that meditative state, to take their mind off everything else and focus on what they're doing.
Right. It's the same sort of thing. So
instead of getting lost in the flow of art, you get lost in the flow of life and the flow of.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just about you and your breaths and, and the task at hand getting in and out and seeing something cool along the way.
So facing that. Would you have a ritual or, or a mindfulness practice before you go down to like face your death and to come to terms of the risk you're taking by doing.
But for the caves, you mean
yeah. For your cave diving. Yeah. I think maybe on a subconscious level, even if not intentionally.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I didn't have like a specific, like physical ritual I would do necessarily, but there's definitely that moment when you just kind of have to, to click everything off and you just start thinking about, okay, I have, what do I have? I have all my equipment, I have this, I have that. And there's less joking.
There's less everything. And you just go into, I guess, before we go down, we always do like these checks to make sure we have everything that it's working and stuff. And in that moment, you're going back over your plan. One last time, you're making sure that your lights are all working, that you have enough reels with you.
Just all the equipment and stuff and your, your air's working. So I think that's always a good moment to kind of like set your mind on what you're. . But I, I think even by the time I, I finish, I probably had like 60 or so cave dives, maybe more in that time. And, and I always had this, I wouldn't say fear, but like this respect and I definitely always breathe just slightly more relaxed or relieved when I see the light coming out of the cave at the end of the dive.
Just, I mean, there's just, yeah, cuz you, because you just know and there's those moments you just know, like, I don't know if something goes wrong right now. I'm probably in a lot of trouble. Like how would I react to that? How would, what would I do?
It's mental fortitude.
You think you would've been prepared for that as much without the peace Corps experience before that.
Probably not. I mean, I think it must be somewhere locked inside me obviously to, to get through peace Corps, but it definitely helped train my mind a little bit and, and helped helped me to build that up because there were a lot of days I woke up and I was like, that's it I'm quitting today. And you're like, just take it one more hour and see how you feel.
And then, you know, an hour or two later, you're like, okay, I'm not gonna quit. It's okay. Like I can do this and underwater you're oh, no. I meant in the peace Corps.
So you see, I thought so too. I was like, wow, like, that's crazy that you took it on an hour by hour level, but oh.
That's why I thought, oh, maybe she went underwater and I was like, fuck, she took it hour by hour during peace Corps. Some days,
some days I felt like I had to, but yeah, I think it, it helped build up a lot of that mental fortitude and, and that's definitely transitioned over to other parts of my life.
Were there any moments in peace Corps?
Were there any moments where you thought you were done? You're like, yeah, I'm going home. I'm done.
I think anytime I got a little bit sick, I was always just like, I'm, I'm worthless when I'm sick. So it's kind of one of those I come down with a little something like, that's it I'm dead.
Like, this is the end. Just take
me. But you had major health issues. Like you listened to Thailand and America, like for a while where like she's gonna get medivac. Like she's not gonna get clear to come back. They're gonna medically separate her. So you, it's not like you were just fell under the weather and had some, the stomach flu, like you were legit, really ill for a very long, for good stretch of time.
Yeah, no, I did get pretty, pretty sick for a while. And that was, that was definitely hard. And it wasn't something that's like super obvious, not like a broken leg or arm or, or something.
So it was more internal sickness and and it was hard because it affected like my eating and, and things. And not everyone understood. And my host family, like, like, why aren't you drinking coffee? You gotta drink the coffee. We love coffee here. And I'm like, I love coffee too. But doctor says I can't.
So, that was hard at times
for sure. So, something else that had really, uh, was really cool to see you experience while you were following diving and your passion is that, uh, you fell in love.
you had met someone And I just remember we're all so happy for you. And it's like, of course you would meet the perfect person when you're following your dreams.
it's like a fairytale
because he was a diver too. It's not like you just met him being in the. You, did you train him or you guys just stove together?
We, we went for some dives together because he had finished training, but there were some dives that he got as part of the training, but it wasn't like required.
So it was just like fun dives. it's like a bonus. And so the instructor at the time was like, oh, I don't have time to take him right now. Can you take this guy for these dives? So I said, sure. I mean, I didn't, he didn't ask me so much as to be like, you know, like you work for me, so , this is who you're taking diving today.
but yeah, so, so I took him for a few dives and, and we chatted and I don't know. And then he just started inviting me to stuff and hanging out a lot and the rest is history, but, but yeah, he has a, a passion for diving as well. So we've really connected on that initially. And yeah, it's pretty cool to, to meet somebody that you can call a partner and a best friend and everything from doing something you love.
Before you had met him, you and I had talked a lot about like how the process of finding something like that was really fucking sucked.
especially being in Timor in a much smaller pool where you were at. And so, what is life like now?
Well, yeah, like it's definitely worth, worth noting. It's not necessarily this like serendipitous perfect thing. When I first came Totour I was in the peace Corps. Didn't meet anybody. And then after that I came back and I didn't meet anybody for like several years before he just like came out of thin air.
So, yeah, it's not necessarily just like a, oh, you just pop into your job and then wow. Everything lines up and the stars are great. Yeah. Yeah. But first now, like
what do you, what do you mean?
So I I'm basically just trying to ask you, is being in a relationship and, you know, being in love, is it is it like everything you thought like it, it would be before you got it? Ooh. Yeah. Okay.
I mean, I think it's better. It's, it's scary in some ways, cuz you're like, oh, I care about this person so much, like the thought of something happening to them or them leaving you is, is actually like really scary. And you're like, oh, I shouldn't care about someone like this. It's. that leaves your heart open to a lot of, a lot of pain.
But it it's been difficult as well. We've had an interesting Rocky road. We spent an entire year apart because of COVID. And there's a lot of challenges having an international romance in multiple spectrums. Like his job is rotational, so he's not in Timor all the time. But he's also not from the us.
So there's another dynamic there, which very much came into play during COVID when, when we couldn't physically see each other, even if we wanted to,
I remember, I remember you saying there was a stretch. He was out on a, on a boat for weeks or months at a time where you wouldn't be able to.
well, I mean, could have, might as well have been a boat. He was, uh, in Antarctica and they didn't have reception at the camp. He was staying in except for like a satellite phone. So I would just have to wait for a phone call maybe once a month, if, if you could get the phone and had time and, and whatnot. So, yeah, it was difficult at times.
It's definitely been more challenging than I expected, like in your head. I think you romanticized love a lot and it's just gonna be fun and butterflies and rainbows and all the happy, fun things you'll do together. But there's a lot of that nitty gritty difficult, hard choices you have to make. And, and times you don't always see eye to eye that you walk through as well.
But if you can walk through it together, it's can definitely come out the other side a lot stronger.
Damn. It's it's this, while you were saying that I was thinking of. in retrospect, like all the lines kind of connected for you, you know, like diving is like something that you got super passionate about, but you probably wouldn't have been able to pursue it the way you did without being in peace Corp before that.
And without both of those experience, obviously one, you, you would've never met Scott, but you also, would've not had the mental fortitude to handle. like, and that's not to say it was easy. Like I'm sure every single day was grueling, but yeah,
I mean, it just goes to show like a lot of times we go through these things that we don't always understand, or we just feel like, why is this being thrown at me? One thing after the other. But it can lead you somewhere that you just never imagined. And even during COVID and stuff, like, I know it's, it's difficult time for a lot of people.
It was difficult for me as well in many, uh, regards, but it, it led me to, to cave diving and this whole other spectrum of skills for my profession and experiences for myself and new mental fortitude and things that I never had planned to do, which is pretty
cool. Yeah. It's and you're also, I think you're just in general, a very open person and I mean, obviously you have to be open to be able to see the blessings of these things then to receive.
Yeah. Something you said earlier is something that's been on my mind, a lot of you know, loving someone. What did you say? You, you related it to grief? Did you relate it to grief? Did I think specifically, or is that what I went to in my head? I don't know. I think you said something along the lines of loving someone so much that you can lose them and like leaving, being open to that kind of vulnerability.
Yeah.
Like, like it makes you realize that if something were to happen or, or if they walk away that it would leave you with this massive hole that you don't know. Yeah. It leads you open to so much grief and potential heartbreak in, in such a way that you don't think about before you've had it. It's actually scary thinking that you might lose them or they might walk away or, or something happens.
And then how painful that might be and, and the potential to have such a, a heavy heartbreak. It's kind of scary. So it's, it's not just the like, oh, I'm in love feeling, but, but it can be that scary feeling of like, oh, what did I just open my myself up
to? as much as you love, that's how much hurt you're equally allowing, making.
Yeah. Uh, yeah, for sure. I've uh, have you ever heard of, uh, Steven Jenkinson. I recently came across him and so I've been doing some research and, uh, talking to people to become a death doula. And Ooh, two of the death doulas I talked to had both, uh, pointed me in the direction of Steven Jenkinson, because he is also like a poet and a musician who, who talks a lot about death.
And okay. So I hit him up. No, I didn't hit him up yet. Sorry. I hit up one of his video and he was he's like, wait, what? I, I have 100% plan on hitting him up and inviting him on here. I'll just throw that on there. Throw that out there. But in one of his videos, he talks about the connection between love and grief.
I've been like meditating on that for like a week since I first heard it. And he talks about how we could only grieve. when we have such deep connection and love and affection for someone or something. And so if you flip that on its head you can only love when you know that that's limited when you know that those days enjoying that love are numbered.
And that really just clicked with what you were. and I think that's, yeah, that's powerful. Yeah. Like I had to pause the video. That's a, that was like a second part interview and I can't even get to part two yet, cuz I'm still stuck on that. Oh
yeah. I mean, that's, that's an intense thought and I, I feel like it in a way during COVID and, and these times when we have this long distance stuff I do, when he leaves, I grieve and, and it's weird because I know he's coming back and he's not like gone forever, but especially like with COVID cuz it was such an unserious, like I don't know what I'll see you again and you know, so much going on when we ended up separated geographic and.
yeah. Geographically separated. sorry. Yeah, lets clarify that. But, but yeah, I, I definitely felt a lot of like this grief of not being able to see someone and not being near them and, and missing him so much, it was just such a powerful feeling. And so yeah. I mean, you feel that when, when you're still with someone and, and then you start to think like you can't imagine actually losing
them.
Yeah. So have you ever found yourself grieving parts of yourself?
I think I went through that process a lot with with my exit from peace Corps and then going back Totour and then leaving. Yeah, there's been a few times, I would say definitely. I feel like I've lost bits of myself or, or you think about the person you were in high school or times, and I guess an example, I'll put, when I went home, I used to straighten my hair a lot in high school and throughout peace Corps.
And then after diving all the time and stuff, I don't do much to my hair. Stays how it is. It's kind of curly naturally, actually. And so when I was home, I, I took out the straightener and I straightened my hair and I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, who is this? You know? And, and it was hard.
I was like, I don't like this person that I'm looking at right now, because I don't know is someone that I used to know, but it wasn't anymore. And there was there a moment of kind of like grief for, for who I'd been.
Yeah. Do you think your intention of the hair is anything to do with it or? No?
my what with the hair?
I think, I think that the idea I was trying to grasp for right now was.
when, when you would have your hair straight, cuz that's something you would do every day. Cuz your hair's naturally curly, right? Mm-hmm yeah. So, I guess, I guess I'm more curious. And what was the, what was that act like of, of getting into old Kayla's routine of like turning on the straightener and starting to look at your hair? Like at that point, did you already start like, wait, why am I doing this? Did it feel right? Or did you like do it because you did wanna see yourself.
Yeah, I think a little of both, like, it was, it was going back through those motions because I wanted, I wanted to feel like myself, but then at the end I didn't feel like myself. I felt more like an imposter, uh, after I was done. And then yeah, you go through it and, and you're just thinking about all the times you straightened to hair in the past and just trying to reconnect with who you had been before.
So it's a very strange feeling that answers,
what were you trying to connect to? Or it was just like the nostalgia just to hold nostalgia of.
I guess the nostalgia is a good way to put it. Just to feeling, I don't know, feeling a certain way about myself or that's how I used to define, like, my beauty in a lot of ways is kind of doing my hair, like putting on a little bit of makeup or other things, and then anymore, I feel silly to put on makeup to straight my hair.
I feel very out of place. And I think that's an interesting transition to go through
yeah, you, I mean, you don't even need makeup oh, thanks, David. You do have a natural glow to you, so, I mean, where do you find beauty in yourself now? Hmm.
Like in the same, do you see beauty in the same places and you just don't need any of that or. Is beauty different for you now? Your definition of it? Yeah.
The definition of beauty for myself, that's kind of tough. I think it's only natural to always kind of look at yourself in the mirror and see some of that very typical beauty and, and how your hair looks or how your face looks or things like that.
Uh, but then I, I think more now, I guess about some of my accomplishments the places I've been, the experiences I've been able to have. And, and to me that feels beautiful to have had so many unique experiences. To gone through different obstacles and come out the other side. Yeah. I feel most beautiful, honestly, when I'm in, in the water and my hair's all a mess and, you know, I come up and the sun's hot and I, all my freckles are just probably doing whatever the freckles do.
wow. So it's like your, you find your beauty and your joy and like yeah. And in your purpose, I think so that's beautiful I asked about if there's a part of you that you grieve because since quitting my job, I've been grieving that track, not that job, I was grieving the person I was who wanted all of that.
Okay. You know? So I, I left, uh, I left my job earlier this summer because, uh, Didn't allow me to have the energy I needed to pursue my passions outside of work. It was, it was just so draining mm-hmm and it just sucked the life outta me. And but it was a good job. right. You know, secure job. It was secure.
It paid well you know, that's the job that people like make their home. And I was ready to make that job, my home for the long term and like, you know, get down that path of, uh, yeah. And so when I quit to pursue this new passion to see what it would bring me there was like a, I couldn't jump into everything.
I wanted to jump into not having a job. Like, you know, it's like, wow. I thought the first day, not like, you know, when you're not working, it's like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna jump in. I'm gonna schedule these podcast interviews. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna write my poems. I couldn't do shit for like six weeks I couldn't do anything.
and I was so guilty, but it took me like a while to realize, like, I was grieving the part of me that, like, I just left a very li a life that I had worked so long to try to get towards. Yeah. And yeah, I think I'm still moving through that a little bit, but I'm running into like a big unknown . Yeah.
Well,
good for you. I think. Yeah. That's how I felt when after peace Corps, when I went back and I had made that decision in my head, and then I have four months at home and I'm just thinking about, holy crap, am I really gonna do this? I'm really just gonna go back. And I don't know where this will take me.
I don't know what comes next. And it's scary. You can almost like close your eyes and visually see yourself on a cliff edge. Just ready. And you're about to take that step. And you're either gonna like fall the bottom and smash apart, or you're gonna fly. And you just, you don't know, but you, but you go and good for you.
You're you're coming through that now. And you're still really fresh from it. Of course, there's that moment of, of missing what you've left behind and grieving for it. But if you don't do something, I, I think people should do things that scare them because that's when you'll feel the most alive. And that's when you know that whatever you're pushing towards is gonna be so worth it because of, of that fear, you have to push through to get to
it.
Oh man. Do you think that's the reason you stuck with, uh, cave diving? Because I, what, what came to clarity for me right now is that me and you are cut from the same cloth and everyone else did peace Corps with, and that we actively seek those uncomfortable. You know where seeking some, some kind of growth at some level.
But it, it sounds like since peace Corps, you've, you've continued to put yourself in these very hard situations. it's like occasionally. Yeah. And so, yeah, I guess, I guess what I'm really trying to get at is have you noticed a pattern in your own decisions even before peace Corps of choosing like the road less traveled and, and wanting and craving some of that difficulty?
I think, I think so. And I don't know what wire is off in my brain. Maybe the, the makes me that way, but even when I finish high school, I just had this innate urge of I'm going out of state. And I know a lot of people go out of state for university and stuff, but it's, it's not as, as common, like in Texas, it's a big state, there's a lot of colleges to choose.
and for me, it was like, I don't even wanna apply to a single one. Like I just, I gotta go somewhere. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city and it it's like, I take my safety net away on purpose subconsciously for just to make my life more difficult. And I don't know why that is exactly. But I mean, I guess it's, it's worked for me.
I've been fortunate in a lot of choices I make turning out for the better.
Yeah. Cuz what's, what's funny for me. I've I've just recently noticed this pattern. I think I've done that a lot of my own life too. And, but I remember it became much more clearer for me when I was talking to a friend about why I went to the peace Corps and I was like, I didn't, I had some whys, but obviously I loved learning about cultures.
I loved being in a new place and traveling and I loved helping and serving others. But my biggest motivation I'd be lying if all those were my. Biggest motivation. My biggest motivation for going was that somewhere innately in me. I knew whatever I learned there is gonna help me for the rest of my life.
And like, why am I gonna put that on hold? Like I'm still young right now. Like
that's very deep David. I mean, , yeah. It's much cheaper than my thoughts on it, I guess, but I
guess, for a reason. Right. so, yeah. Have you had any, like, was ever that an intentional thought of.
I think not at first, but I guess some part of me knew that the experiences that I build are going to help shape me into who I am. So now it's definitely more intentional and yeah, for peace Corps, it was, uh, I wanted to travel. I wanted to see places. And I guess at some point when I was young, I had it in my head that I needed to go live in a third world country for some portion of my life.
And I guess I was just to experience and I've been told I'm a bit empathetic. So I guess that side of me wanted to really know and to walk in the shoes of people who, who have a completely different life. and peace Corps seemed like a good opportunity to, to really do that. And, but to do it in kind of in controlled environment, if you will just a lot that wasn't as controlled, but you know, the safety net of medical and a group of people you go with and all of that.
Yeah. So I recently heard a new take on empathy that blew my mind. And so, you know, with empathy it's yeah, it's, it's put, it's wanting to put yourself in the other shoes and I'm gonna get in a little wool territory here, but , I I've become a believer that I've had past lives. I've been here before.
Like this is not our only ride on earth. And and I think a big part of that is that whatever we are on the other. it wants to come back and have new experiences, you know, like it wants to live differently. If, if this were a video game, it wants to change all the fucking settings. each new game, like fuck that, everything new, just shuffle.
And and so I, I say this a long-winded way of saying that with empathy, the, the root of empathy and the way I heard it, it's not just feeling for someone, but it's knowing you are them in another realm in another life. That is you. Like you are looking at yourself.
Ooh, that's a thought. Yeah. Oh,
it gives me a little chill.
You got you the hippy Jimmys. Yeah.
yeah. So like, what do you think about that? Does that re.
I, I think it's something that will probably keep me up at night now. Thank you. Because I haven't ever really thought about it in that way. So I imagine that when I wake up at 3:00 AM, I'll start thinking that it's it's that other me from another, another time, another place crazy, right?
I do always think, uh, maybe it's just a silly thought, but my dad had a brother who passed away at a younger age. I never met him. But I remember them saying he had scuba diving equipment on order right before he passed and, and he was actually like the adventurous one too. Like my, my, some of my family, they, they loved to travel, but not quite in the extreme way that I've taken it, but he, he was a, a missionary in Africa for several years.
And so he did a lot of traveling. I would've loved to meet him, but part of me always where's his gear kind of like, have you checked out his view? No, I don't know what happened to it. I'm sure it got sent back. It was a long time ago before I was born, but I just kind of think part of me is maybe, I don't know.
I would dig into that. He's living
gone through me. Yeah.
he is living through you. That's so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, well, generational trauma is a thing and so generational, why can't generational desire be? Hmm.
yeah, why
not?
oh man, I have a, I have another layer deep to go on on, on that. Should I take it there? Should we take this off line? Edit it out, but it's oh,
go for it. I guess. Yeah,
I guess I'll just do it. We'll decide. . Okay. So, take, take it a level deeper.
For me I've recently been infatuated with this idea of soul contracts and I don't know if you've heard of it and I, I don't like the word it's it's basically it's concept, don't get too attached to the word. It's the concept of a soul contract and how I said how I've been here before. I believe that whatever we are our souls on the other side, we're all homies, all of our souls are homies, you know, that's who we're gonna see again.
And so it's so
Californian right now. Yeah.
so before life, before life. We talk to each other and we come up with a plan of like, Hey, when I'm at this point in my life, I'm gonna need you to come in and help me, you know? Aw. Or on the opposite, I'm gonna need you to break my fucking heart. You know, like basically if like, like how we were talking earlier, it's always about the growth.
It's always what we're gonna learn. I think that's a very primal desire in our souls. Like we, the whole point of coming here is to learn, you know, to expand. And so in that vein, everything has a purpose. You know, when you meet someone who you feel like you've known your whole life, that's probably someone you've, you had a sole contract with, you know, like how can we connect so quickly right away?
You know? So anyways, that being said, I now have the perspective that there's always a lesson either. Either I helped teach someone a lesson or someone helped me learn something. So when I reached out to the medium, she was an ACO records reader, and this is someone who can learn and have access to what these contracts were with people.
You can access it and learn like, what is, what was my deal with this person? You know? And so when I reached out to her, my intention for the call was like, what the hell was my contract with this chick? Like, are we done? Like, like, what do we gotta do? Because tell me, yeah, what's the fine print. Yeah.
Because like, as much as I like I've forgiven and I've I've, but I can't forget, I guess. And so, and I can't just let it be the way it is. It's, there's something in me that kept wanting to reach out and like build a friendship again. But it's like, it's, it's done. you know? Yeah. So that's what I asked her.
And so , this might blow your mind too. So she didn't know that I had done the peace Corps. . And so when I, when I told her about this relationship and, and how I was just ready to close the book on it and, and the friendship, I think it was, for me, it was mostly the friendship that I was still grieving.
Mm-hmm um, immediately she was like, yeah, this is this is a person, this is a soul that you've had a lot of tied to ties to even in a previous life. She's like in a previous life, you were a, uh, a leader of a traveling tribe, like in Celtic times, she's like, you were a leader in of a traveling tribe.
Y'all just traveled the world. And you were the leader of that, of your tribe. I was like, oh shit. Okay. She's like, along those travels, you met a woman and you guys were not good for each other, but you fell madly in love. And in that process, there was betrayal. and from that betrayal, not only did you lose her, but you lost your tribe.
they're like you lost your friends in that process. And so that is a deep rooted pain that you are carrying with you into another life, you know? Huh. And I was like, fuck. And so, I was like, well, what the hell? Like I've done everything I can to forgive her. So like what's going on? And only this, but this is same soul.
like, I obviously didn't learn my lesson. Yeah. So, so like, Hey, can, can you teach me that again at this life?
well, so what happened? And so it happened and and so anyway, so I asked her, I was like, well, I already tried to forgive her. So what the hell do I have to do? And she's like, you need to forgive yourself. for the damage that was done to you and your friends. You have not forgiven yourself for that. I was like, whoa.
Oh shit. But that replicated the whole process replicated. Tell me, tell me how I didn't bring a bunch of drama to us.
tell me. I mean, yeah, there's definitely a bit of drama at times. Yeah, it it's definitely okay to say you were the leader of our tribe might be a little, a little of an exaggeration.
Yes. I'm not saying that I was the, everyone come follow me, but there were mul, there were multiple people, including staff and volunteers who had told me.
It was like, I was the glue who kept everyone together. That's
true. You were kind of a go between at times, like a spokesperson for us in certain situations. I that's true. I forgot about that. So I'll give you that, uh, that's
not a leader. What is, you're not our leader. You
are elected spokesperson, David. I just don't want you to get too big of a head.
You know, it's,
obviously it's a stretch, obviously it's a stretch, but similarity, I piece some parallels. Yes. It's the parallel. Yeah. Obviously I can give you a hard time. I'm probably gonna edit all of that out, but isn't that wild?
That's pretty crazy. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's a bit creepy.
And so what did it help crazy?
It helped a lot BEC and it, and it made sense and you know what, maybe none of it fucking matters, but it brought me closure and it brought me clarity. And for me, that's, that's all that fucking matters. And it, then it did, it led me view things. Like I now view things from love, like from a place of goodness, you know, I don't have any, any spite and I saw it for that.
It's worth it alone. But what's funny is that my last attempt to build a bridge she left me on red. Like she just like, just didn't fucking respond and I'm like, and so that hurt a lot, but it's funny because when I looked at it from the view of a perspective of a soul contract, it's like she did her job.
yeah. She's trying to, she literally her job. Yeah.
Yeah. She did her job. Like, fuck it. There's nothing there anymore. It's all on you now.
And so you go learn today. you go learn
today. And so, damn. Yeah. So that's like kind of been where my head was. Okay lately.
I like that. Yeah. Soul contracts. Ooh. I, I'm not kidding.
It's gonna keep me up at night. I'm gonna wake up and that's gonna be on my mind. I mean, I think it's a beautiful way to look at stuff though. Cuz you do have a whole different perspective instead of like someone treated you horribly or did something bad to you. It's maybe it's like, what lesson can I take from this?
Yeah.
And so my, my first bone to pick with, with that concept at first was if we choose our life and if we choose our struggles beforehand, what does that say for people who don't have homes, people who, who are born with illnesses, you know, chronic illnesses die, young mm-hmm and I don't have the answer.
I just have an answer. I heard someone talk about it. It, it, it felt right with me and it true to my, what have I experienced with people like. but the answer to that, cuz there's probably someone listening. If I share that's gonna have that rebuttal too. The people who suffer the most are the most courageous souls because they come here voluntarily to suffer and, and the hopes that their life will impact someone else that they care about, their struggle is gonna help.
Like they're probably helping teach empathy to someone in their life. Wow. And the fact that they're willing to live like dirt to do that one, I mean, it shows how courageous it is, but two, if you zoom out, it also shows how insignificant one life is. Aw. You know, like, and that sounds bad but, but I mean, if, if, if you live in infinity, you know, like coming and living a life is like, Hey, I'm gonna play video games for a few hours.
it's like, I'm gonna go live a life real quick. You know, it's for us, like, yeah. I don't think our brains can fathom that aspect of that time. Oh, all. I think we need a bridge conversation to go into in case I edit that hole
last 20 minutes. that's some heavy stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You got,
maybe we'll fucking leave it.
Maybe we'll fucking leave it.
What is, uh, what's next for you and for diving? Like where, where are, where is diving in your life? Like five or 10 years from now? Do you still see it as being the focal point or what's if diving will still play a role in your life or forever play a role in your life, like, nevertheless, what do you see for your life going forward?
Yeah, that's uh, a loaded question, David , but I will do my best to answer. So I feel like it's kind of a question I've gotten a lot just in different versions.
Being back in Tmore, I was gone for almost two years because of COVID things. And now I've been back about three months and readjusted again to life and, and the diving lifestyle here versus the Cape dives in Mexico and, and everything else before. and people keep asking, like, how long are you gonna stay?
Uh, what's what's next for you? So it's definitely a question that's been kind of milling around and, and to say, I have the perfect answer for it would be a lie. I definitely wanna stay int more for a bit longer. I feel I have more to learn here and some things that I didn't get to do that I had wanted to before COVID and before I leave, so I'll, I'll be in Tmore and I wanna keep diving it.
It's always gonna be a part of my life, a part of who I am. And it's, it's a big part of my identity right now, I would say as well. So I don't know what form that might take in the future. Hopefully one where I still get to go diving and seeing beautiful things, exploring parts of the ocean, but. I don't know if that will be like through a dive shop, through teaching through something less conventional or research.
So I'm still kind of waiting to see where life takes me next in, in some forms, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, it's always gonna be a part of who I am now for sure. Mm.
Yeah. I see you owning your dive shop. You're I see you doing something unconventional for sure. Yeah, that's me. What do you still have to learn in teamwork?
A lot? there's I mean, there's so much in diving. You can learn not just courses, but I'm still quite fresh as a teacher. So there's a lot for me to learn and, and teaching style and getting more comfortable with that teaching different types of people. There's more on the leading side of things to learn and grow management stuff.
In the water, just honing in on skills, finding new creative solutions for problems I encounter related to diving in the water, outside the water. so, I mean, there's, there's a lot of stuff and, and maybe I could do it somewhere else as well, but there's a beautiful environment here in teamwork to, to learn around and the people as
well, hopefully, uh, hopefully you're still there by the time I go back to visit I hope
so.
Hurry
up. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to end it. I do have one final closing question. I'm trying to ask everyone. Okay. So this is the last question I like to ask. Say you wake up tomorrow morning and you forget everything you know about diving. And the mental fortitude it takes to survive in those dangerous diet. But tonight with your wisdom and your knowledge of today, you can give yourself a post-it note to help get you back to where you are now.
What advice would you give yourself? Ooh,
that's a tough question. Is it like one of those like really big goofy post-it notes or no? No,
just cause of that, you're getting the bookmark posted notes.
thought you just got two words, just a regular skill.
Oh
I'm gonna take just a moment to think about that before I respond. What would I tell myself?
I guess I would probably
say,
I'm gonna say this the wrong way, I guess, but to, to trust myself, to listen to my inner voice, because so many times I'm afraid to admit to myself what, what I want. So, so maybe to go for what I want would be something I'd say . Mm. Yeah. I mean, even with diving, like you guys, I came to you guys and I was like, so excited.
I'm like, I think I'm gonna pursue diving. And you're like, well, duh, of course we've known this for a long time. And I was like, oh, well, it just came to me. So, yeah. So I think if I, if I could write down something, I'd say to, to go after what I want and, and, and to trust in that,
That's important too. I'm gonna have a piggyback question on that because I know, no, it, it is a good question.
So for me, with writing, it took, so I consider myself to have been a poet my whole life. It just took me almost 30 years to be, but nothing changes by the way. I look at the world and the way I, I, I receive the world, you know, it's, it's, most of it's pretty much the same. Now it's just more intense than it was before, but I wish I would've either had listened to my.
or had enough self-awareness to be like, dude, you're a writer. Like why aren't you writing yeah.
To follow that passion.
Yeah. Yeah. And so when a lot of people learned, I was a poet, I heard the same thing from people. It was like, oh yeah. Like, of course you are like, yeah, it makes sense.
that's like, yeah, of course, duh.
Yeah. It's uh, like why didn't you tell me
yeah. I, I found an essay, not an essay. I found a poem from high school. I was going through all my high school shit. I got a hundred percent on a poem assignment. And like, I barely even try and no one even fucking told me I was so mad at that teacher. I was like, what come you didn't tell me I was a poem.
but, so I guess what I'm trying to get at is why, what was it that was preventing you from putting those pieces together yourself? Like why did it take you so long?
Yeah, because I, I was afraid to admit to myself that. that, that thing that I wanted was something I could go after, because you think about the traditional paths that you're supposed to take, and you're supposed to go to high school and then you should go to college and then you get a practical degree and then you start working in the job for however many years and make it your career and get lots of money and you buy a house and, and then you settle down and things.
There's, there's like this expectation. I feel like we, we glean from society and, and what we're told growing up and to break out of that mold can be difficult when you start having these dreams that don't fit the way that a lot of people's lives go. And I think it's just because maybe I, I can't speak for everybody, but it's, it's scary sometimes to do that thing that you're passionate about.
People will tell you there's no money in that. There's you can't make it doing that because you're not good enough or whatever else. And, and I just say, fuck, 'em, you know, like, like no great artist ever started and was just P Picasso immediately. It takes training. It takes dedication and skill, and it's something you have to cultivate and, and you will grow what you cultivate and what you water.
So don't be afraid to, to go after something just because it's not typical. And it's not the path that most people follow because your path is your own and it's what you make of it. Mm what's the number one thing
that keeps you on your path now,
now that you followed it and now you're walking, like, why are you. That
why?
Yeah, I guess what drew it to me in the first place? The, the beauty, I, I just have to remember what I, I went through to get here and then not to use that as like the crutch of like, I can't reinvent myself because I've spent all this time and energy doing this one thing, but, but where it's brought me that I never expected.
And then seeing that and thinking back to where I started and being like, oh, like, where could I go if I keep going,
you know, seeing, seeing where I am now versus where I began,
you're gonna go a lot of places. Cause you've already been in so many places. Thanks, David. Ah, thank you so much for coming on. We've been talking about doing this for a while. Yes, we have sit down. It's the bummer. We, we were able to do it on video.
I
know. Well, thank you for having me being flexible with the scheduling and with video, voice, wifi, internet problems.
yeah, no, it's all good. Where, uh, where can people find you?
Uh, yeah. So if you want to follow on Instagram, uh, so at Marie underscore of underscore the underscore C that's a lot of underscores, but Marie of the C with underscores Marie of the C follow my dive journey. 📍 Yeah,
that's good. Get her up for some diving lessons. Go to two more last day. Yeah. Have some coconuts and, and learn to dive with Kayla.
The noble
Yeah. All right, Kayla, thank you for coming on. This has been great.
Thank you for having me, David
I hope you enjoy this conversation with Kayla. As we talked about, there is no crystal clear cutter way of going after what you want. A lot of it is being real enough with yourself to determine what you want. And having enough faith and desire to go through the hard times to get it.
Whether it's safety, there's comfort. And most of the time getting what you're hungry for. Can be one of the most uncomfortable experiences of your life. But at the same time, it can be rejuvenating, transformational. And the journey of a lifetime. So I asked you. What is calling you? And what are you willing to do to follow it?
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating or review. You can tag me on social media, send me a DM or even leave me a voicemail@www.art to heart.live. Let me know how you're liking these conversations. If you have feedback, tips, constructive criticism.
I'm all. This is a labor of love and I'm still figuring my way out around this medium. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week.